Stephen Sackur:

The Maldives which promotes itself as an Indian Ocean tourist heaven, is currently experiencing a form of political hell. Street protests, spreading violence and parliamentary chaos, all followed the resignation earlier this year of President Mohamed Nasheed, and what he claims was a de facto coup.

My guest today is the current President of the Maldives Mohamed Waheed, says his goal is to unify the nation. But how can he when he stands accused of undermining Maldivian democracy?

President Mohamed Waheed in the Maldivian capital Male’, welcome to HARDtalk.

You said just the other day that things have changed for the better in your country. Given that we see protests on the streets, we see a bitterly divided country. And we see allegations that you are President because of a coup d’état in the Maldives. I am struggling to see how things are better inside your country. Please explain.

President Waheed:

We are hoping things will be better. We have an opportunity now to put democracy back on track and to do what is necessary to build democratic institutions in the country. We embarked on a democratic path many years ago, leading to the multiparty elections in 2008.

But since then we have seen progressively undermining of our Constitution and rule of law in the last three years. And what has led to this situation is partly the challenges that we have faced for democracy. So now it is the time and opportunity for all political parties to reflect once again and try to put democracy back on track.

I am working with all the political parties and I have invited Mr Nasheed’s party also to join and to work together. I have now put together a multiparty CABINET. I have invited MDP, which is Mr Nasheed’s party, also to join. So far he has not responded. But the kind of divisions that have been caused in Maldives politically, have to be overcome through dialogue and not through violence on the street. So I’m hoping…

Stephen Sackur :

Let’s address some of these points if we may. You talk about legitimacy and you say that your country was deviating from the path of democracy over the last few years, three years I think you said. Let me just quote you some words given to the UN general assembly last September.

Quote, “My country the Maldives was a harbinger of the Arab awakening. I can report without exaggeration that the Maldivians enjoy more freedom today than at any other point in their history”. Do you know who said that just a few months ago?

President Waheed:

I probably said it, as well.

Stephen Sackur:

You said it. Now how does that square with you telling me that under President Nasheed, the country was deviating from the democratic path.?

President Waheed:

I’ll give you an example. One of the basic freedoms that we enjoy in Maldives is freedom from arbitrary arrest, and the freedom from fear. That is one of the biggest achievements in democracy. But what you have seen in Maldives in the last few months and so on is an eroding of those freedoms, and leading to, as you very well know, the military being ordered to take a serving judge from his home, from his bed, and disappearing.

This is the kind of incidence that completely undermines our certainty, in that we have some sense of assurance that we have freedom from arbitrary arrests and disappearance. That to us…

Stephen Sackur:

You feel, obviously, former President Nasheed argues about the case of this Chief Justice from the Criminal Court. Even if we accept what you’ve just said about his arbitrary detention, you think that is justification for a coup d’état, do you?

President Waheed:

There was no coup in Maldives. There was a resignation by the President, for what ever reason. And clearly there are questions about the circumstances. And I have now setup an independent inquiry to look into it.

Our Constitution is very similar to the United States’ Constitution. For whatever reason, when the President is unable to continue either through resignation or any other means, then the serving Vice President is required, under the Constitution to swear-in.

So my swearing-in is perfectly legitimate. It was on the request of the Speaker of the Parliament, and the oath of office was performed by the Chief Justice of the country. So irrespective of what happened prior to my taking of office, my presidency is according to the Constitution, and I am required to perform my duties and take the country forward.

Stephen Sackur:

Let me quote you if I may, the words of your own brother, Naushad Waheed, who served as a senior diplomat in the Maldivian High Commission here in London. He says that you, and he says that he loves you, but he says you seized power in an illegal coup, which was both immoral and illegal – the words of your own brother.

President Waheed:

I love my brother too. But his loyalty is clearly with Mr Nasheed. He was appointed there by Mr Nasheed so I can understand his sentiments. But he was very far away from the situation here. And if you also come to Maldives and see for yourself what is happening here, you will understand that there may be many reasons, many explanations to what happened here, including the fact that President Nasheed just simply lost it and he was unable to control the situation.

Stephen Sackur:

But with all due respect, when you say your brother wasn’t there, neither were you frankly in the room when, as former President Nasheed has described it to me, he had three military officers in front of him, he had dozen and more military officers behind him, all of them delivering a message saying if you do not resign now, we will resort to arms within one hour. That amounts to a coup d’état. And you by taking the job as President in his place have been a collaborator in that.

President Waheed:

President Nasheed resigned in front of live television. He had his cabinet behind him. He should have indicated, he should have said, I am sorry I am being forced to resign. He could have said that. He didn’t. He signed his letter by himself, and if he indicated even indirectly, then we would have gotten the message.

I don’t think he was forced, really, I wasn’t there. And therefore, I don’t know all the details. But as I said I have setup an inquiry commission. They will find out what the real truth was.

Stephen Sackur:

That commission will want to know whether it is indeed true, as it has been reported in the Maldives, that you had late night meetings with prominent figures in the opposition directly before the so called coup d’état. Is it true?

President Waheed:

I have had meetings with many political leaders. As Vice President of the country it is my responsibility to listen to what other people have to say. This country was going through a very hard time with demonstrations every night.

The first time when they wanted to see me I informed Mr Nasheed that they wanted to come and see me. He paid no attention to it. Demonstrations were going late into night, every night. And when they came to see me, yes it was kind of late at night, but I met them. And I informed the cabinet and Mr Nasheed about their meeting the next morning.

Stephen Sackur:

Is it also true that one of your brothers, Ali, appeared at the state television station, I’m guessing perhaps the very building that you are in now, and came along with security force personnel, and informed the managing director at the time that he was taking over? And this all happened actually before former President Nasheed had submitted his formal resignation?

President Waheed:

I don’t believe that sequence of events were right. He did come, but that was much later on. He is somebody who had worked in the station for many, many years and he knew the place. Clearly that day, the events were complicated. So, I’m not sure if he had anything particularly…

Stephen Sackur:

You are not sure? Seems a little odd to me, given that so many allegations are swirling around your country, many of the critics of what you have done in recent weeks suggesting that you were party to this conspiracy, this coup d’état. It surprises me you are not sure. And I guess you’re going to have to explain to the investigating committee, exactly what you knew and when you knew it. Question is, are you prepared to have an outsider, somebody from outside the Maldives, sit as a senior representative on that investigation committee?

President Waheed:

I have left the investigation to a prominent inquiry commission, and they are free to invite anybody they want including foreign observers to observe the investigation. I believe…

Stephen Sackur:

Yeah, but they haven’t done that, have they? And it’s interesting that you appointed as Chairman, the former Defense Minister from the government of the former, it has to be said, autocratic President Gayoom, who of course is a bitter enemy of former President Nasheed. I just wonder how that can be a really independent committee of inquiry.

President Waheed:

No, this gentleman who is chairing it has been living abroad for sometime now. He has not been involved in politics locally, and the rest of the members in it are also not involved in politics. It is a very small community and it is very hard to find respectable people to serve on this kind of committees. It took sometime. We first shared the names, with also Mr Nasheed’s party, but we didn’t get a response to it. And therefore, we had to go and setup the Commission.

Stephen Sackur:

But Mr Waheed, you are President of the nation now. If you were to say on this programme, on HARDtalk, that you believe it’s only right and proper that a senior figure from outside the Maldives, from the international community, should sit as an active representative on this investigation committee, to discover what really happened during the transfer of power. That would carry weight. Are you prepared to say it here and now?

President Waheed:

Yes, I will support it. I will support it definitely. And then we also welcome…

Stephen Sackur:

You want to see an outside, overseas active participant sitting on the committee? Not just as an observer but actually sitting on the panel?

President Waheed:

I have no reservations about it. As you know, we are working very closely with the Commonwealth right now. We have a Commonwealth special envoy, who is arriving in Maldives in a matter of few hours and we will provide all cooperation necessary to him.

Stephen Sackur:

The Commonwealth you mentioned also has called for a declaration that there will be early elections in the Maldives. Constitutionally, because you have taken over as President, you could it seems run your presidency all the way thought to the autumn of 2013. But the Commonwealth, the European Union, the Indian government and many others too have called on you and your country to make sure there is fresh presidential elections within months, as soon as possible. Are you prepared to say you will do that?

President Waheed:

Look Stephen, we have a Constitution. According to the Constitution, the election can be brought forward by 120 days. I have already said that I am prepared to support that. Clearly, any earlier election has to be approved by the Parliament and some Constitutional amendment has to take place.

For this I have said the discussion should go into the Parliament now and the Parliament should discuss these things, including what needs to be done in order to stabilize the situation so that we can have a free and fair election. I don’t believe that we can have a free and fair election immediately, because as you know, the supporters of Mr Nasheed do not believe in any institutions of government, except for parliament. Even the Parliament, they are currently refusing to open. And so…

Stephen Sackur:

Mr Nasheed as you know, he says the basic principle here is that he will not cooperate either in the convening of the parliament or any other political dialogue until there is a clear commitment to early election. If you are saying the earliest election can be 120 days before October of 2013, that’s not going to be early enough. He wants elections this year at the very least.

President Waheed:

Well, he can have the election this year, if the Parliament approves an amendment to the Constitution. I am all for it. I have already said that I will encourage and work with all political parties to achieve that. It depends on what the parliament wants.

Stephen Sackur:

So when would you like to see the election Mr President?

President Waheed:

As early as the Parliament wants. I’m ready for it.

Stephen Sackur:

Yeah, but when? Show some leadership here. You have taken the job, you are now the President. Tell me when you believe these elections could take place – the earliest moment.

President Waheed:

You see, we have several political parties. This is not a dictatorship, I cannot decide myself. We have many political parties. I am working with most of them and they have to come to an understanding with MDP on a date. I am not empowered to say this is the particular date in which we are going to have an election. This has to be worked out through discussion.

Stephen Sackur:

But you are, are you now prepared to say, after we have seen all the chaos in the parliament, the MDP and Nasheed’s supporters preventing the Speaker from actually convening the Parliament, you are prepared to say that the first order of business in the Maldives today has to be fixing early elections?

President Waheed:

Absolutely.

Stephen Sackur:

Well, I dare say Mr Nasheed will be pleased to hear that. What he won’t be pleased about, and I know his supporters in the MDP are not pleased about, is the degree to which you appear to have thrown in your political lot, with the allies and the supporters of former president Gayoom, who many will remember as the 30 year President, an autocrat who nobody could describe as the real democrat. Why have you joined forces with him?

President Waheed:

I have joined forces with many political parties. As you know Mr Gayoom’s party is just one of them. There are 7 political parties. Every single active political party in Maldives is working with me and why can’t MDP work with us also?

At this time, the politics in Maldives is very divisive and we have deep problems in the early days of democracy. We never expected it to be so hard but that’s the way it is. And now I think even MDP and Mr Nasheed must also work with everybody else. They can’t just have their way and nothing else. They have to also discuss these things. They can’t start from the end point. The end result they want is an election date and that’s what they want to start with. How can a discussion continue that way? I expect them to lend some cooperation at least for the sake of this country.

Stephen Sackur:

But you ask the rhetorical question why can’t Nasheed show us some trust? Why can’t he join the dialogue? Maybe because, by throwing your lot in with Gayoom’s people, he doesn’t believe you are deserving of trust. Let’s remember Gayoom is the man who made him a prisoner of conscience, who in fact forced you in to exile for years. Gayoom and his people are not committed to democracy. So why are you working with them?

President Waheed:

This is not true. It’s not only Gayoom’s people. As I said there are seven political parties involved here. All the political parties except Mr Nasheed’s party…

Stephen Sackur:

I heard you say that Mr President, but look at the reality. Your Home Affairs Minister was Gayoom’s Minister of Justice. Gayoom’s lawyer has become…

President Waheed:

He was also a minister in Nasheed’s cabinet

Stephen Sackur:

Yea I know. But look at the list Gayoom’s lawyer becomes your Minister of Justice, his daughter becomes your Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, his youngest son becomes Minister of State for Human Resources. I mean this is a close association.

President Waheed:

There are fourteen members in the cabinet and three of them are from PPM, from Gayoom’s party. The rest of them are from other political parties. So it is not fair to say that it’s predominantly Gayoom’s.

In fact you should know that Mr Nasheed’s closest allies were also members of Mr Gayoom’s cabinet earlier. His last Foreign Minister was a minister in Gayoom’s government. His special envoy Mr Zaki held many positions in Gayoom’s cabinet. So it’s unfair just to assume it.

This country is a small country. Gayoom was ruling this country for thirty years. Most of the people who got education here, or went through higher education, went during his time. Government was the biggest employer. So, almost everybody had some role in that government.

Stephen Sackur:

Well here’s what the Times of India said in an editorial the other day. Quote: “Gayoom clearly is pulling the strings behind the scenes in your government.” That’s their view. I suppose they are also basing that on what we see at the human rights record. For example, the Amnesty International accusing your security forces in the last couple of months, of beating civilians protestors, beating children, beating women who happened to be expressing a political opinion. That’s the sort of thing we saw during the Gayoom era.

President Waheed:

There were some confrontations on that 8th of February. That was before I could even put together a cabinet. Mr. Nasheed came out on the street with his supporters, threatening to burn down places and destroy things. They went ahead in other places of island where we do not have the kind of security as in Male’. They went ahead and torched many police stations and court buildings and caused enormous damage. All the public records of the judiciary in the Southern Region have been completely destroyed. That had to be stopped. There may have been some excessive uses of force. But I have insisted…

Stephen Sackur:

With respect, Mr. President, I don’t think it was just February the 8th. I’m looking at an amnesty report which itemizes the excessive use of force on February 20th, February 26th. These are days in which you have to be held to account because you were the President.

President Waheed:

I have been insisting that the police and the law enforcement agencies abide by the constitution and by the rule of law. Obviously some of the things that have occurred here have also occurred in the past, during Nasheed’s time as well. The demonstrations that went on for three weeks, they were disbursed similarly. Of course nobody made a big deal of it. But the pepper spray was sprayed in people’s eyes, people were beaten, those things happened.

We have to have more training for our police force and we have to build confidence in the police force, there is no doubt about it. And these are the kinds of things that have to be done before we can have a free and fair election in the country.

Stephen Sackur:

Do you ever wonder in your perhaps darker moments, that you have engaged in some sort of feistier pact here by agreeing to become President in the wake of the demise of Nasheed because it is going to get very difficult. Your tourist numbers are down and your own tourism industry association recons you are going to lose a Hundred Million Dollars over the next six months. We see protests on the streets; we see continued unrest around the parliament. Things it seems, in your country is going get worse before they get better.

President Waheed:

We have a situation here, where Nasheed’s way or no way. All the political parties who are working with me, they represent the majority of the people in this country. They also have a voice. And we need to discuss and come to dialogue so that we can have some semblance of peace and stability on the streets of Male’. The only disturbances that are caused here are caused by Mr Nasheed’s supporters. And I have...

Stephen Sackur:

That’s not true Mr President, is it. And if we are talking about inflammatory language, it’s not just Nasheed’s supporters who may be indulging in that from time to time. There are people who are now inside your coalition, who are using very Islamic language, very inflammatory language, referring for example, to the fact that Nasheed is involved in the a devious plot to destroy the Islamic faith of the Maldives. It just strikes me that again you and your associates are playing with fire here.

President Waheed:

This is an Islamic country and there are fears that other religions might develope here and so on. It’s an Islamic country. There is a political party that represents Islamic values. They were also in Mr Nasheed’s cabinet and things haven’t changed just over night.

Stephen Sackur:

To be plain Mr President, I just want to pin you down on this. Do you disassociate yourself from the idea that Nasheed was involved in a devious plot to destroy the Islamic faith in your country?

President Waheed:

You see I have never accused him of that. Of course there may be some people who accuse him of it. But I have never done so.

Stephen Sackur:

But do you disassociate yourself from it.

President Waheed:

Yes, I have. What you need to also understand is that just like in the United States, just like in Europe, there are political parties who represent religious values. That doesn’t make Maldives a fundamentalist country.

Stephen Sackur:

How long is this very difficult phase in the Maldives’ current politics going to last Mr President?

President Waheed:

I hope not too long, because we are in discussions. Even today I met with the parliament leader of Nasheed’s party, and I have assured him that I will support any decision of the parliament to hold early elections. I have assured him that we will have early elections even if the parliament can’t agree, we will have early elections as early as possible under the current constitution. We cannot go against the constitution. We have come to this point because we have not respected our constitution and we have not respected the rule of law. The last thing I want to do is to circumvent the constitution.

Stephen Sackur:

Mr President, President Mohamed Waheed, thank you very much for joining us from Male’.

President Waheed:

Thank you.